What Is The Mega Backdoor Roth?

On This Episode

In this episode, John and Nick explain the Mega Backdoor Roth strategy and how high-income savers may be able to contribute significantly more to Roth accounts through their workplace retirement plans. They break down the rules, requirements, and potential tax benefits, while highlighting who may benefit most from this advanced retirement planning strategy.

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Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.

 

Marc:

This week on Retirement Planning Redefined, part two of our conversation about the backdoor Roth IRA. This is the mega backdoor Roth. Let’s get into that conversation with John and Nick.

 

Hey, everybody. Welcome into the podcast. This is Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. Find the guys online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That’s pfgprivatewealth.com. And it sounds like something, guys, out of a, I don’t know, out of a superhero story or something. It’s the mega backdoor Roth. And that’s the topic of the conversation this week. So we’re just going to dive right in because there’s a lot to cover anyway. So we’ll just jump in and get going.

 

I guess, Nick, if you want, why don’t you talk to us, give us a really, really short recap of what we talked about last week for those who may have not listened to that podcast. And then what’s to understand what to do if you want more than the IRA limits and just kind of set us up here a little bit for understanding the mega backdoor Roth.

 

Nick:

Sure. So just a quick recap on a Roth IRA and the benefits of it. So contributions typically are with after tax dollars. So income that has already been taxed. The account grows tax deferred, so you don’t receive a 1099 each year. And then the withdrawals are tax-free after 59 and a half. The Roth IRAs do not require required minimum distributions, which are nice. And they’re a great place to have more of your growth oriented assets because of the tax-free upside and the fact that you can leave a tax-free account to your beneficiaries.

 

Marc:

Gotcha. And I guess some confusion here, guys, and help me out to understand this a little bit, is that we’ve been thinking about the Roth. We typically just, I’ve been saying just the Roth, that’s the IRA. But because they have now created the Roth 401Ks, that adds a little confusion to the conversation as well. It’s always funny because the word contribution and contribution, excuse me, and conversion confuse people. So it just confused me right now. But also 401, the Roth 401k and then the Roth IRA is now confusing people as well too. So are we talking a little bit more about on this episode, that mega backdoor Roth being from the workplace plan? Is that what we’re looking at here?

 

John:

Yeah. So we’ll have to leave the IRA world and jump into the 401k plans where they have much larger contribution limits, which is where we get our superhero work.

 

Marc:

The mega term. Okay. Yeah.

 

John:

Exactly. We could do a lot more of what we discussed last week. So if you like the benefits Nick went over, this is a great way to really maximize those benefits.

 

Marc:

Okay. Well, let’s start with the limits. What are the limits? I guess again, we’re in the 401k plan now.

 

John:

Yeah. So for 2026, under the age of 50, standard contribution limit is 24,500. There is a catch-up, and for today’s purpose, we’ll just talk about the standard contribution. When you are talking catch-ups, just whatever we’re discussing, add the catch-up to it. But for today’s purpose, to keep it simple because we are going to do a deep dive into some of these numbers, let’s just assume standard contribution limit, which for this year, 24,500. And what a lot of people aren’t aware of because it typically doesn’t apply is your total limit to the 401k contributions. Now this is employee and employer is actually 72,000 for 2026, and that gets adjusted up every year similar to the standard contribution limits.

 

Marc:

Oh, okay. Wow, that is a big number.

 

John:

Yeah, it’s mega.

 

Marc:

Yeah, it’s mega. Yeah. So why would the IRS build a $72,000 ceiling if they cap the personal down so low? So I guess what’s the other 47,500?

 

John:

Yeah. So one of the things that we focus on is 401ks, which comes with employee benefits, perks, things like that. And some people hear the term matches quite a bit.

 

Marc:

Sure.

 

John:

Another one is profit sharings. So that $72,000 limit is basically the IRS saying, hey, the employee can do this amount, and if the employer’s going to give X amount of benefits, it really can’t go over this $72,000 threshold. So that’s pretty much what it is. The IRS basically said, hey, let’s put some limits to this so we can’t over commit to people or do … They want to be able to provide a benefit, but not go crazy with it. So that’s where we get the number.

 

Nick:

And to kind of summarize that, a away to think about it is that there are standard

limits for the employee contributions. And sometimes as an example, we’ve seen clients say, we’ve told them, especially new clients, like, “Oh, well, I’m maxing it out when you include the employer match.” And it’s like, no, those contributions are for your dollars. And then this overall maximum amount that John’s referring to is a combination of employee and employee dollars. So it’s like two separate tranches within the same year of the same plan.

 

John:

To confuse everyone a little bit more, part of that 72,000 is, if your plan allows it, and we’ll dive into this, is what they call the after tax contribution to a 401k. And I know we hit it last week, but that is something that goes into this feature, which is actually older than a Roth 401k, but it’s not used very often or not many people are very aware of it, but we’ll jump into it today.

 

Marc:

Okay. So the mega backdoor strategy is the employee kind of hacking, if you will, this potentially unused space. So can one of you guys maybe do a numbers example where it maybe will make a little bit more sense for folks?

 

Nick:

Sure. I’ll kind of break it down and give an example. So let’s say that there’s a 40-year-old and because they’re under age 50, their standard contribution into their retirement plan is going to be 24,500, so around two grand a month. In this case, their employer matches and the total amount of the match throughout the year is 10,500. So when you combine those two amounts, the total balance for the year, not including any gains or growth is going to be the total amount contributed is $35,000 for the year. So when we go back to that aggregate ceiling that John mentioned, the 72,000. So with our basic math, and if you’re not good at basic math, now we have AI that helps us.

 

Marc:

You got 37 grand basically, right?

 

Nick:

Yep. So 72 minus 35 is $37,000. That is the gap or kind of the unused space below the IRS guideline. So that’s the number that we can target should the plan allow it to build in or if you have … All this is dependent upon cash flow, of course, but if you have the cash flow to be able to save additional money into the plan.

 

Marc:

Gotcha. Okay. So that makes a little bit more sense, right? So you’ve got that space. It’s almost kind of like filling up your tax brackets before you move to the next tax bracket, if you want to think about it that way, not to add more confusion to it.

 

John:

Yeah. It’s like filling up your gas in your tank here. I got this gap here. Let me, with the rest of this, like we said, Nick said, I said, if the plan allows it, I can do some after tax contribution up to that ceiling.

 

Marc:

So all right, with the Roth 401k existing now, and those contribution numbers are higher, because part of the reason for this hybrid guys, when they made the Roth 401k is you get the income limits of a traditional 401k, but you get the Roth benefits of the Roth IRA. That’s why they kind of merged these two together because people often say, “Hey, I make too much money to use a Roth IRA.” But the Roth 401k is higher. Isn’t this just what this is, just a contribution to a 401k? It kind of feels like it.

 

John:

It’s not because the Roth 401k is a formal tax designation that falls under that

standard contribution limit, that 24,500.

 

Marc:

Okay. All right. Back to the standard 24. Okay. Yeah.

 

John:

Yeah. Yeah. So kind of think about it that way. It’s that, hey, your pre-tax 401k contribution and the Roth 401k contribution are subject to that standard contribution limit, which in 2026 it’s 24,500. And with the Roth 401k, it’s after tax money and growth is tax deferred and tax-free distribution. Where the after tax, and we talked about that in detail, it’s after tax contribution, but the growth is tax deferred, but the growth if pulled out will be taxed, the earnings on that. So again, kind of caveat to understand the difference between those two contribution types.

 

Marc:

Gotcha.

 

Nick:

Yeah. And in general, a lot of the podcasts that we do are focused on broader base impacts a lot of people. This is definitely a niche sort of strategy. There’s not a huge percent of the population that has, number one, the ability to do this in the plan, but also the cashflow to do it.

 

Marc:

Gotcha.

 

Nick:

But for those that do, it can be a massive, massive edge on what they’re trying to accomplish.

 

Marc:

Yeah. Well, especially with that aggregate number, right? So the rules, they’re not as genus or generous, I should say, I guess as they are.

 

John:

Yeah, exactly. They won’t let us take advantage of too much stuff. So basically it’s like, hey, again, if the plan allows it, you can do more contribution, but it will be taxed when it comes out of the earnings portion of that.

 

Marc:

Okay. So to clarify, if I got this right based on Nick’s example a second ago, that extra $37,000 gap, again, just to kind of recap, we had that we put in 24,500, the company did 10,500 for total of 35,000, 72 is the aggregate there. So left us with that $37,000 gap. So if I drop 37,000 of after tax into that gap, I’ll get hit for taxes on all the compound interest of that growth when I pull it out, correct?

 

John:

Correct. Yes.

 

Marc:

Gotcha. Okay.

 

John:

Yeah. Which is the difference with the Roth where everything’s tax-free.

 

Marc:

Yeah. So every dollar gets taxed.

 

John:

Every earning dollar gets taxed.

 

Marc:

Earning dollar. Okay. All right.

 

John:

Yeah.

 

Marc:

So this after tax contribution isn’t the destination, it’s just the first step, sounds like.

 

John:

Pretty much, yeah.

 

Marc:

Okay. All right. What else?

 

John:

So step two would be the actual conversion or the conversion or basically putting these funds into the Roth account, whether it’s a Roth 401k or Roth IRA and we’ll go over the two different ways you can do it. So that would be the next step is converting it or transferring it before there’s any gains similar to what we discussed last week. Once there’s gains in this after tax contribution and growth, now it’s subject to taxes. So you want to do an immediate conversion or transfer to either to a Roth style bucket. I want to give an example of not converting immediately, what happens in that situation. So let’s say you do an after tax contribution of $10,000 dollars and you forget to convert it. And that $10,000 now grows to $15,000. So you have $10,000 is your cost basis, what you put into it and $5,000 is gained. So if you do the conversion after you have that gain of $5,000, your taxable income goes up by the taxable gain amount, which is the 5 grand. So you’re taxable income goes up by 5 grand, so you want to make sure you do the conversion immediately to avoid that additional tax hit from happening.

 

 

Marc:

Gotcha.

 

John:

And then once it’s in that Roth bucket, basically everything is tax-free and tax-deferred, tax-free, and subject to the Roth rules.

 

Marc:

Yeah, the age rules and time rules, all that good stuff.

 

John:

Yeah.

 

Marc:

So John, can everyone do this?

 

John:

Yeah, so I’m going to give you the annoying answer of it depends, and it depends on if your 401 k has particular features to it. And one of those features are, does the 401 k allow for after tax non Roth 401 k contributions? Okay, so you have to check that, so that’d be a question to the plan administrator, HR, whoever handles it. So, if that is allowed, the next question is, can you do the conversion? And there’s two ways you can do the conversion with with these 401 k plans. Option one is you do an in-service rollover and you roll the funds out to your Roth IRA, and it converts once it rolls out to your Roth IRA. Okay. Option two is you do an in-plan 401 k Roth conversion, so all the money stays within the plan.

 

Marc:

Gotcha.

 

John:

Okay, let’s kind of review the in-service rollover strategy. So, while you’re working, you’re still employed, so that’s where the in-service comes into play. What you would do is call up the provider and say, “Hey, I’d like to roll out these after-tax contribution funds to my Roth IRA. Again, outside of the plan you’re rolling it out. So, when you do that, it creates the conversion when that happens. So, once it goes from the after-tax contribution in the 401 k goes to your Roth IRA. Now the funds grow as if it’s a Roth IRA.

 

Marc:

Now it’s Roth money, right? Okay,

 

John:

Correct. So that completes that transaction. So something to be aware of, and we talked about this last time when we talked about the back door Roth with the Roth IRA is the pro rata rule. When you do it this way, the pro rata rule applies. If you have pre-tax IRA, there’s not to confuse everyone even more, but there’s a formula involved. If you have pre-tax IRA money and you do the conversion this way, there is some type of formula. So, again, meet with the CPA, your financial advisor, if you’re going to do this type of strategy while you have a pre-tax individual retirement account, IRA balance, okay,

 

Marc:

Geat, yeah, great disclosure there to make, make note of. So, good point there, John. What if your plan doesn’t allow that?

 

John:

Yeah, so let’s say you, your plan doesn’t allow the in-service rollover, in-service withdrawal, whatever you want to call it, or you’re not eligible to do it because you know certain plans you have to be above the age 59 and a half to do that. So, okay, recapping, your plan isn’t – you’re not eligible to take advantage of the in-service withdrawal slash rollover in your plan. The next thing you want to look at is, okay, does my plan allow for in-plan Roth conversions? So, that would be where everything stays within the 401 k hub, and what you’re doing is you’re converting the after-tax dollars right into the Roth 401 k funds. Okay, so it’s pretty simple here. The money goes in after tax, and then you do the conversion within the plan, and now it shows up into your Roth 401 k balance. So, it doesn’t create a taxable event, then doesn’t create a taxable event, because well, let’s backtrack. If you do the conversion immediately before there’s any gains on the after-tax funds, it does not create a taxable event in that situation.

 

Marc:

Gotcha. Okay.

 

John:

All right. Okay. And something to note here, and I referenced the pro rata rule on if it goes to a Roth IRA within the 401 k, that pro rata rule does not apply. Okay, so that’s a nice benefit of keeping it within the plan, is you don’t have to worry about that formula if you have pre-tax balances.

 

Marc:

Gotcha. Okay, there’s a lot to digest, for sure.

 

John:

It is. And actually, some plans I was just working with someone, and their plan actually had basically automatic conversions, so it was a feature where daily any money that hit the after-tax account would automatically convert to the Roth 401 k, so it basically could put on autopilot and not worry about it.

 

Marc:

Yeah, so it sounds like obviously these plan-specific features can provide possible green lights to do this, but you got to check that stuff.

 

John:

Yeah, exactly. And then, and just to clarify that pro rata rule, because it is confusing is if you do an implant conversion again, this is all within the 401 k plan. So you convert from after tax in the 401 k to Roth in the 401 k, and let’s say you have a balance of $400,000 pre tax. The pro rata rule does not apply, you can convert it, not worry about, hey, how much do I have pre tax versus if you roll it out of the 401 k into a Roth IRA, the IRS will look into if you have any money in a pre-tax traditional IRA, and if you do, that’s when the formula kicks in. Okay, so just, you know, that’s an important caveat that I’ve seen people miss if they do conversions, and it’s just important to, you know, talk to somebody, and before you execute these strategies.

 

 

Marc:

Okay. Yeah. So obviously there’s a lot of nuance here, so there’s a lot of things you got to be aware of. So making sure specific plan features have the green light, I guess, is one of the major steps to consider on this, Nick, right?

 

John:

One thing that we missed here, which is separate from the IRAs. So not to confuse everyone even more, when you do a conversion within a plan, there is no pro rata rule like the IRA. So it doesn’t matter if you have 400,000 in your pre-tax 401 and you do a conversion, there’s none of that formula there so you can do it and have no issue.

 

Marc:

Gotcha. And so circling back, Nick, you mentioned earlier, you got to check with the company, I guess, to make sure, again, we’re talking about workplace plans here to make sure that they even have this green light to get this done.

 

Nick:

Yeah. Realistically, if somebody was trying to figure out the steps on navigating this, step one is contact your employer, HR department, and ask if the plan allows for non-Roth after tax contributions. That’s step one. And then you kind of cascade down to the other parts or reach out to us and we can help walk you through it because all the details might make you want to cry.

 

Marc:

Right. Okay. All right. So let’s say a ton of stuff here to think about, obviously a lot of stuff to process. So I guess, okay, here’s a big question then. So you walk through the rules, some of the mechanics of whether you can do it. I guess the question, John, is should you? Just because you can do something as the saying goes doesn’t mean you necessarily should.

 

John:

Yeah. So that really probably should be the starting point. So you don’t have to go ask all these questions, see if you’re eligible to come to find out, hey, I probably even shouldn’t do this strategy. So if it goes back to planning, of course, can you afford to put a total of up to 72,000 potentially away into a 401 plan? If you can afford it and not have to worry about expenses and things like that, then now you should start considering it because this is a pretty risky strategy because you are locking up a lot of money subjecting it to all those IRS rules and penalties and things like that.

 

And then the other thing is, do you need the balance of having some more Roth funds, which I would say most people do where it’s, do I need a good mix of pre-tax and after-tax stuff? Looking at tax brackets now versus in retirement and a lot of the other things that Nick has mentioned, he could probably jump in here and give a few more details of it.

 

Nick:

So I’ll give a couple other ideal candidates as an example. So let’s say that somebody is a person or a household, high-income earners, they’re maxing out their 401k contributions. They don’t have a lot of Roth money because their income is high enough where kids are grown, they’re taking a hit from a tax perspective if they’re not doing pre-tax contributions. And maybe they’re saving a big chunk of money every month or every year into a non-retirement account, but they’ve also built up a decent balance in that account. And so they’re looking for a way that they’re not going to give up the deduction that they’re getting up for their regular 401k contributions, but they want to develop some Roth funds and they make too much money. And so it’s like, okay, check, check, check, here’s a perfect place to do it. Another way, another circumstance that could make a whole lot of sense, inheritance.

 

So dependent upon the structure, if somebody inherits money from an IRA, from a non-spouse, they have 10 years to withdrawal and deplete that account. So as that money’s coming out, maybe they’re looking for a place to put money that can have some tax benefits for them longer term and they have more cashflow in those years of taking out those withdrawals, so that’s a place that they can put it. Or somebody’s double dipping on Social Security, they’re still working and they’re taking Social Security and they’re looking for a way to deploy some of that money and put it into an account, that’s another good opportunity.

 

Marc:

Gotcha.

 

Nick:

So those are all situations that could make a lot of sense and add a layer of strategy that somebody hadn’t considered.

 

Marc:

So it sounds like obviously basic Roth conversions, there’s some complexity there. You want to check with financial professional. The back door gets even more complicated. Then the mega backdoor gets even more complicated. So at the end of the day, to find out if this is the right strategy and fit for you, it’s all about having a plan and running some numbers and getting some math put together to see what makes the most sense. Is that fair, John?

 

John:

It is, because even if you’re a fit to be able to defer that amount of money, some of these rules really limit who can actually take advantage of it. Where we see it work quite a bit is solo 401k, someone owns their own company, it’s just them and their spouse and they have a solo 401. Well, they can go to the provider and customize their 401 to allow this.

 

High earners at large companies where, again, don’t want to get into the weeds of this, but there’s 401 testing rules where it really affects smaller companies. When it’s a large company, you don’t see the rules affect some of those high earners because in small companies, there’s testing and stuff like that. And again, it’s more confusing stuff, but smaller companies, it is harder to take advantage of that if you are considered what the 401k Department of Labor considers a high earner. So great strategy if you can afford to do it and you have the flexibility with the 401k to allow you to do it’s an excellent way to take advantage of the Roth benefits and maximize it.

 

Marc:

Gotcha. So at the end of the day, it comes down again to having a strategy that fits for your situation. So understanding if it’s right for you, do you qualify? How do you do it? Making sure it’s done properly is the important pieces of all of this. And that’s why we talk often about the fact that growing and accumulating money is a little easier for DIYers to do that. A lot of us can kind of, with the technology and the resources today, can build our wealth. But it’s the preservation and distribution stage, which is also known as retirement, that you certainly need some help with because the rules get very complicated. And sometimes when you pull one lever, it affects nine other things that you didn’t even realize. So that’s why you want to get that retirement plan redefined with John and Nick. Reach out to them at pfgprivatewealth.com. That’s pfgprivatewealth.com.

 

And with that, we’re going to do it for this week. So make sure you subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify so that you can check out new episodes when they come out. And of course, if you have questions around this, and you probably do, make sure you reach out to them and have a conversation. Guys, thanks for successfully blowing our brains out with this one because it’s a lot of stuff to take, but it’s important because a lot of these strategies out there don’t get talked about as often. So good stuff. Thanks for breaking it down, John.

 

John:

Yeah, no problem. And I enjoy some of these deep dives, so look forward to doing some more of them.

 

Marc:

Yeah, for sure. Nick, thank you, my friend, for jumping in as well and helping out. It’s definitely a lot to unpack for people. So I always appreciate you guys.

 

Nick:

Thanks, Marcus.

 

Marc:

And be sure to consult with your tax advisor. This can affect your federal tax rates and also state taxes if you have state income tax. We’ll see you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick.

 

What Is A Backdoor Roth IRA?

On This Episode

This week, we’re breaking down the Backdoor Roth IRA: the legal workaround that high earners use to get their money into a Roth and let it grow tax-free forever. We’ll walk you through exactly how it works, who it’s for, the one sneaky tax trap you need to watch out for, and whether it’s actually worth the extra steps. If you’ve ever been told you earn too much for a Roth, this episode is for you.

Subscribe On Your Favorite App

More Episodes

 

Check out all the episodes by clicking here.

Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.

 

Marc:

This week on Retirement Planning Redefined, what is the backdoor Roth IRA? Let’s talk about it. Let’s break it down.

 

Hey everybody. Welcome into the program. This is Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. And this week, guys, and actually the next two episodes, we’re going to talk about the backdoor Roth, even the mega backdoor Roth. And just kind of do some recapping on the Roth in general. Why would you want to do it? What is it? How do you set them up? Is it useful? All those kinds of things that might pertain to doing the backdoor Roth, which sounds like it’s not above board, but it completely is.

 

It’s an actual totally legal strategy that you can use, but it’s got that kind of weird name to it. So we’re going to kind of break that down for folks this week and help people learn a little bit more about that on this episode and next episode. So we’ll get into it right now. John, how you doing buddy? You doing all right?

 

John:

Hey, doing all right. After four months of a kitchen remodel, it’s almost done.

 

Marc:

Yeah, nice.

 

John:

So life almost going back to normal. So I will say there’s a little more pep in my step lately.

 

Marc:

Nice. You can get a brand new kitchen that you still won’t use because you’re so used to doing something else.

 

John:

You know what? I have been cooking quite a bit with my daughter.

 

Marc:

Oh, okay. Nice.

 

John:

I told myself I’m going to use this thing. So we got cookbooks and it’s pretty cool.

 

Marc:

Nice. Very cool. Very good. Well, Nick, how are you, my friend?

 

Nick:

Good, good. Just moved into new house this past weekend with my new wife. So a lot of new stuff going on last few months, but we’re excited and happy.

 

Marc:

Yeah. Well, that’s fantastic. And of course, it’s a busy time of the year too, right? Springtime, all that good stuff. And conversations around tax efficiency become a big deal, hence the conversation around Roths and Roth contributions and how to do them. So I guess let’s just dive in. What should somebody know? Why would someone want to do one? Nick, why don’t you start us off?

 

Nick:

Sure. So for a Roth IRA, there’s a couple kind of key elements to it that we tend to focus on with people. As a reminder, the conversation that we have with people is that there’s essentially kind of three phases of taxation for accounts. When the money goes in, is it taxed or tax deferred as it grows? Is it taxable each year or does it grow tax deferred? When you take out withdrawals, is that withdrawal going to be taxable or is it not going to be taxable? So with a Roth, you’re making contributions with after tax dollars, so you’re not getting a deduction. The money grows tax deferred, so you don’t get a 1099 each year. And then when you take out the money, it’s a tax-free withdrawal. A couple of the other kind of key factors to consider when you’re doing this is that one of the benefits of having a Roth account is that Roth accounts do not require RMDs or required minimum distributions.

 

When funds were in a Roth 401k, they used to require having minimum distributions, but they no longer do. So no Roth money is something that we don’t want clients to have. We want to make sure that clients end up having some Roth money in retirement. One other factor to take into consideration, because the upside on Roth accounts are tax-free, that’s oftentimes where we will suggest that clients put their more growth-oriented investments for their overall allocation. That makes a lot of sense when you have a tax-free upside.

 

Marc:

All right. So John, so now talk to us a little bit about, I guess the Roth conversion, maybe a little recap there, and then some things to ponder.

 

John:

Yeah. So part of the backdoor Roth IRA strategy is conversions. That’s a step in the process. And I know we’ve talked about this in the past, but it’s always good to recap. And I think people hearing things over and over again, it really sits well with them. So how it works with Roth conversions are there are, number one, no income limits. So anyone can do it. So whether you’re making 50,000 a year or 300,000 a year, or if you’re retired, you can go ahead and do a Roth conversion. So that’s caveat number one. Some people do think they’re limited because in the past there were, I think in the early 2000s, there was income limits and those no longer apply. And how that works is Nick talked about the different phases of money. So let’s say you have some money in an IRA and it was tax deferred, everything’s pre-tax, so you did a deduction going in.

 

You can basically convert it all to a Roth IRA and it now turns into tax-free. How that works is whatever amount that you convert in that year, that becomes taxable income to you. So if you decide that, hey, I’m going to convert 30,000, your taxable income goes up by 30,000 in that given year. So important to really look into tax planning. We’ve talked about all this in the past, but before you do anything like this, you want to look at, hey, what does this do for my tax bracket? If you’re under the age of 59 and a half, it bypasses a 10% penalty. So you can do a conversion basically when you’re 40 or 50. So you’re not subject to that 10% penalty when you do a conversion, which again, some people just might need to hear that because they might say, “Oh, I can’t do a conversion yet because I’m not above 59 and a half.” And then also to have a count in the current year, you have to do it by December 31st.

 

Marc:

Gotcha.

 

John:

And another caveat with Roths is the five-year rule. So whenever you do a conversion amount under the age of 59 and a half, it’s subject to the five-year rule, or if you’re converting to your first time having a Roth, it’s subject to the five-year rule. So things to really take into account other Roth rules even once you convert because they still do apply.

 

Marc:

Okay. All right. So we got some kind of background information there on these two pieces. So Nick, what’s the backdoor Roth? As I said a minute ago, it sounds like it’s sneaky, but it’s not. I mean, you could totally do it. So what’s the deal to know here?

 

Nick:

Yeah. So the biggest cause or reason or most prominent reason that somebody would take advantage of using this strategy would be because their income limits or their income from a household standpoint, or if they’re single, exceed the income limits on being able to make a contribution to a Roth IRA.

 

Marc:

Yeah. You usually hear that, right? We make too much, we can’t do it, right?

 

Nick:

Yep, exactly. So for a quick kind of recap, for 2025, married finally jointly, the full contribution was if you were making under $236,000 a year, married filing jointly, then there’s a phase out period. So you’re fully phased out above 246,000. All right. For single, those numbers are 150 and then 165 for the phase out. Those numbers went up a little bit in 2026. So now married filing jointly, the phase out starts at 242,000 and then it’s fully phased out 252, single 153K for the year and then phases out at 168. So the thought process is, all right, you’re diligently saving into different accounts and you are looking for additional places to save money into, and your income exceeds the limitations. So you thought you were kind of out of not having the ability to make the contribution to the account. And that’s kind of the triggers that people should keep in mind like, hey, does this make sense to me?

 

It’s like, I’m higher income. I’m looking for a place to put money. I make too much money to make a regular contribution to a Roth IRA. Hey, is this something that I might be able to do?

 

Marc:

Gotcha. Okay. So now you’ve got the limitations, the reasons why. So now you have that understanding of, okay, is the backdoor Roth right for me? John, what’s the strategy of how to do it?

 

John:

Yeah, so Nick went into the income limits. And something before I go into the strategy is people understanding what an after tax non-deductible contribution is to a regular IRA. And when I get into the strategy, I’ll explain why this is important to understand. So most people, when they make IRA contribution, they deduct it, which Nick talked about the three phases, and that’s kind of the perception. hey, I make an IRA contribution, I can deduct up to 7,000, whatever the number it is in that year.

 

Well, you can, no matter what your income is, make an after tax non-deductible contribution. So what that means is, let’s say if you put that 7,000 into the IRA, you don’t deduct it’s after tax, and any growth moving forward is tax deferred and subject to taxes when you pull it up, but your after tax dollars are not subject to taxes. So just wanted to clarify or explain that when we go into the strategy, because this is going to be an important factor of understanding how that works.

 

Marc:

Gotcha. Okay.

 

John:

So the strategy works like this. It’s kind of different phases. So phase one is you determine what Nick said, should I be doing this? I want to save some extra money. And then you look at, okay, let me go ahead and make a non-deductible contribution to a traditional IRA. And what I stated earlier, it doesn’t matter what your income is. You can make a non-deductible contribution up to the IRA contribution limits for that given year. All right. So that’s first step is that. Then before there’s any earnings at all, because I just went over where with a non-deductible contribution, any earnings are subject to taxes. So let’s say you put in 7,000. So really that day before it’s invested, even in a money market or cash, because there might be some earnings there, you convert it to a Roth IRA. So you basically transfer it into the Roth IRA account and there’s a conversion paperwork to do and stuff like that, but you just basically transfer it in.

 

Now, where this works is there’s no earnings to tax. So basically what you’re doing is you’re taking that after tax contribution in the IRA, transferring/converting it to a Roth. Now it’s in the Roth bucket, and now all those earnings become tax deferred and tax-free when you pull it out. So that’s kind of the whole preface of it is that, let me do this conversion immediately, and that’s the way that you kind of do the back door.

 

Marc:

Okay. Right. So you’ve gone through this process, you’re thinking about the strategy. What are some considerations, Nick, to ponder here?

 

Nick:

Yeah. So really the cleanest, easiest, most simple way to do a strategy like this is if you do not have funds in your own IRA. So there’s a rule called the pro rata rule. And if you have other pre-tax money in a traditional IRA, and you want to execute kind of the backdoor Roth via the conversion, there are limitations on the amount that you will be able to convert without having any tax implication. So the ideal person is, let’s just kind of use an example of a couple, maybe early to mid 40s income, household income exceeding like $275,000. They’re putting a chunk of money into their 401ks and they’ve got good savings, a reasonable mortgage, and they’re looking where to kind of divert some money because they don’t have any of their own IRAs. The process is we open up a traditional IRA, we open up a Roth IRA, make the contribution to the traditional IRA, and then immediately execute the conversion.

 

That with the fact of them not having any money inside of their traditional IRA avoids the pro rata rule, and we just use that traditional IRA account to fund the conversions on an annual basis. So as a reminder, the contribution limits apply. For 2025, the contribution limit under the age of 50 is 7,000 per year over the age of 50 with the catch-up is 8,000. 2026, those numbers bumped up a little bit, it’s 7,500, and then for some reason they decided to pick 8,600 instead of 8,500, because who knows, why not?

 

John:

Keeping you on your toes, Nick.

 

Nick:

Yeah. Yeah. Just why not have it 600 if you can? So one kind of way, especially this time of year, that ends up, if people have free cash sitting in the bank, done this a few times this year so far, where they can make the non-deductible IRA contribution for 2025 and 2026 so we can put in 14,500 to 16,600 a bigger chunk, immediately convert it right away, and then you have the bigger amount going in. So that can be a nice way to kind of front load it and get the ball rolling.

 

Marc:

Gotcha.

 

Nick:

A quick reminder on that too is you want to make sure you file a form 8606 to report non-deductible contributions and the conversion. So there’s a tax form when you do this.

 

Marc:

Gotcha. So John, ultimately, I think people kind of want to know, is something like this right for me? How do I know? How do I do it? I mean, I guess the first thing I would advise is you certainly probably don’t want to tackle this on your own. You want to probably talk to professionals to help you with this because from the standpoint of even if finding out if it’s right for you, not to mention you want to make sure you do it right.

 

John:

Yeah, that’s 100% because that pro rata rule Nick mentioned is very sneaky.

 

Marc:

No, the government’s sneaky. Get out of here.

 

John:

Yeah. It’ll mess with you because a lot of people aren’t aware of it. If you have 400,000 in IRA and you’re like, “Oh, let me do a backdoor Roth.” You do it and all of a sudden you get a penalty from the IRS and it’s like, hey, we got you. You didn’t follow our rules. So that is number one. Definitely work with a tax advisor, financial advisor when you’re doing this type of strategy to make sure that you’re doing this to make more money and have more flexibility, not have penalties. So just do it right and make sure it’s in line. That’s number one. And then the next step is the name of our podcast, retirement planning. You want to make sure that this fits in with your plan and it makes sense. Nick gave a great example of you have some savings that is maybe not getting the best tax advantages of it.

 

This is a nice way to shift some money and say, “Hey, let me be more tax efficient.” Just from experience, having no RMD and retirement can be a big deal for some people, that way it’s not really forced income to them, which is nice. Having that tax diversification of assets where it’s depending on what the tax environment is, you can determine, “Hey, this is what I want my tax bill to be in a given year.” And we’ve talked about the bill last year where you have certain deductions. So again, it’s nice to have flexibility. Big one, legacy planning, which I don’t think we’ve hit yet with the Roth accounts, your beneficiaries inherited tax-free. So they get it tax-free. And with that new IRA rule, inherited IRA rule where you only have 10 years to pull it out, it’s a pretty big deal. So there’s definitely a lot of benefits.

 

If it works for your situation, it’s a great strategy and definitely worth taking advantage of while you can.

 

Marc:

Yeah. And that’s the point is finding out, is it right for you? And to the point of the complication, the conversation, as you just mentioned, they eliminated the stretch IRA a number of years ago and the IRS just got around recently to identifying exactly what the rules around that were. So it takes them five years sometimes to settle on rules for things that they put in place 10 years ago.

 

So having the conversation with professionals who deal with this stuff day in and day out is very important to find out if it’s the right fit for you. Again, especially, I mean, Roth conversions and Roths out there in general have been around for quite a while and so has the back door. It’s just a matter of understanding if it’s the right situation for you based on earnings and all that good stuff.

 

So if you need some help, as John mentioned, the name of the podcast is Retirement Planning Redefined. Get on the calendar, have a conversation and redefine your strategy with the team at PFG Private Wealth. Again, pfgprivatewealth.com. That’s pfgprivatewealth.com. Or call them at 813-286-7776. And guys, what we’ll do is we’ll talk about on the next session, the mega backdoor Roth, because that sounds even crazier, and we’ll go from there and get into that chat. So guys, thanks for breaking it down. Nick, always appreciate your time, buddy.

 

Nick:

Thanks, Mark.

 

Marc:

John, as well, thank you so much. And enjoy that kitchen, man. Get in there and make something good.

 

John:

I will. I’ll keep you posted.

 

Marc:

All right. We’ll see you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick.

 

Ep 15: Roth IRA 101

On This Episode

Last week we covered the basics of the traditional IRA and today we will shift our focus to the Roth IRA. John and Nick will once again explain the basics to this investment vehicle. We will also compare and contrast the Roth IRA to the traditional IRA.

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Disclaimer:

PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.

Here is a transcript of today’s episode:

Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Welcome back in to Retirement Planning Redefined. Thanks for tuning into the podcast. We appreciate it. Maybe you’ve received this podcast through the team’s newsletters or email blast. Or maybe you found us online on various different podcast outlets like Apple or Google or Spotify. Either way we appreciate your time. And we’re going to spend a few minutes with John and Nick talking some more about IRAs. And this go round we’re going to spend some time on the Roths. But first guys, what’s going on? How are you?


John: I’m good. So my one year old is sleeping through the night very well, so I feel like a new man.


Speaker 1: That goes a long way that’s for sure. Well kudos on that. And Nick, how you doing, buddy?


Nick: I’m pretty good. My 15 year old dog is not sleeping through the night.I’m okay.


Speaker 1: Yeah, getting up there. I’ve got a 13 year old dog and she’s a pistol. I got a 22 year old daughter and I can’t tell which one’s a bigger pain in the butt, the dog or the daughter. But they’re both doing pretty well. The kid’s actually graduating from nuclear engineering school. Actually I get to go see her Friday, and she’s now a petty officer. She ranked up in the Navy. So we’re all proud of her.


Nick: Congrats.


Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate that. I’ll tell you what, let’s not talk about babies, dogs or the Navy for just a minute. Let’s talk about the Roth IRAs as I mentioned. So if you happened to catch the last podcast, we wanted to go through and talk about IRAs, about the vehicle. And we spent some time on the traditional side. So guys, do me a favor first, let’s just do a recap, a little bit, of the traditional IRA before we switch over to the Roth so people have some context on that.


Nick: So one of the biggest benefits for any sort of IRA account are some of the tax benefits. But one of the things that we wanted to remind everybody of, and this helps with IRA accounts, but also just really any investment account. Sometimes the feedback we’ve gotten is it’s helpful for people to think about the different types of accounts in three phases of taxation. There’s as the money goes in, is it taxed, is it not taxed. As the money grows, is it taxed, is it not taxed. And then when it comes out so that you can use it, is it taxed or not taxed. So for traditional IRA, you know the first one, as it goes in, in the last session we talked a little bit about it. Most of the time for most people it’s not going to be taxed. But there will be some rules on when that’s after tax money, it’s going to grow tax deferred. So you’re not going to get 1099 on it each year as it grows. And then when it comes out, it’s going to be ordinary income tax.


Nick: And then for the Roth IRA, which is what we’re going to get into today, it is money that’s already been taxed is going to go in. It’s going to grow tax deferred. So [inaudible 00:02:43] 1099s, and then on the backside it’s tax free. That’s the comparison as you go through.


Speaker 1: Okay. Since you brought it up, let’s go ahead and just jump right into it. So John, give us a few things to think about on the Roth side. He already mentioned the tax deferred part. What are some other limitations and things of that nature we talked about like with the traditional, some numbers or some things we need to know?


John: Yeah, so like the traditional IRA, the contributions are based off of earned income. So again, that does not count real estate state income, any interest, income like that, but earned income. And as far as the limits go, if you’re below 50, [inaudible 00:03:20] 6,000. Anyone above 50 can do 1,000 catch-up, which gives you a 7,000 total. And just to again reiterate some mistakes we’ve seen where you can only contribute 7,000 between the two of you. You can’t contribute 7,000 each. Okay, so 7,000 total.


John: And something that some people aren’t aware of is that even if, let’s say one spouse is not working and is staying home for whatever reason. They are eligible to make a spousal contribution to an IRA, whether that’s Roth or traditional, which is a nice feature because that does come up quite a bit. So to talk about the contributions of a Roth, we gave the example of traditional IRA as far as making a pre tax contribution. As Nick mentioned, the Roth is after tax dollars. So example of that, 100,000 of income for somebody, they make a $5,000 contribution to a Roth, their taxable income stays at 100,000 in that given year. So there’s no tax benefit up front with the Roth IRA versus a traditional IRA, you could have a tax savings up front when you make the contribution if it’s deductible.


Nick: So from an eligibility standpoint, for a single person, somebody that makes under 122,000 can make a full contribution. If their income is between 122,000 and 137,000, there is a partial that can be made. If their income is over 137,000, they are not able to make a contribution to a Roth IRA. For married filing jointly, if their income is below 193,000, they can make contributions for both of them and their spouse. If the income is between 193 and 203,000, it’s a partial. And if the household or the married filing jointly income is above or greater than 203,000, then they are not eligible to make the contribution.


Speaker 1: Gotcha. Okay. All right, so we’ve covered some of the contributions, some of the eligibility you mentioned already in the tax deferred growth part. What about access? Did we cover some things there?


John: So one thing the eligibility and it’s becoming more popular now with Roth 401k. So if you’re not eligible to make a Roth IRA contribution, one thing to do is check with your employer and see if they offer a Roth 401k, which actually has no income limits for you to be able to participate in it, which is a nice [inaudible 00:05:37]


Speaker 1: Okay, that’s good to know. Yeah, absolutely. All right, that’s a Roth 401k. Maybe we’ll do another show about that another time. What about the access side, anything there? Is it the same 59 and a half, all that kind of stuff?


John: So rules are fairly similar, where you as far as access getting to the account, there is the 59 and a half rule. And if you do draw early there’s a 10% penalty on your earnings. And I stress earnings on that, because with a Roth IRA and I say this, consult with your tax preparer, tax advisor, we don’t give tax advice. But with a Roth IRA, you can actually access what we call cost basis prior to 59 and a half without any penalty. I’ve seen a couple of people do it where basically let’s say if you’ve put in 30,000 into your Roth in your account at 50. So 20,000 earnings, 30,000 is what you’ve put in, which is considered your cost basis. You can pull that 30,000 out without paying a penalty. It’s just you have to keep very good records of your contribution amounts. And if you do pull it out, you have to work with your tax preparer to go ahead and let the IRS know that you pulled out a portion of your tax basis. And that’s would avoid any type of a penalty on that.


Speaker 1: All right, so we’ve covered several things on the Roth side, so the access, the eligibility, contributions, all that good kind of stuff. So let’s just get into the fact that it’s been hugely popular. It’s been a very hot button issue for the last really couple of years. Obviously one of the reasons, we mentioned earlier that it’s tax deferred. Really, the taxes are low, right? We’re in a historically low tax rate. So one of the reasons that a Roth might be a good place to go, or a Roth conversion I guess I should say, is because of the tax thing. So what are some other reasons why the Roth is just really popular?


Nick: You pointed to one of the biggest reasons from the standpoint of we are in historical low tax brackets. And one of the things that we talk about with clients and it really became evident towards the end of 2019 is, the thing that might be the quote unquote best strategy today, it may not be the best strategy five years down the road, 10 years down the road. So for most of the clients that we meet with, they’re substantially overweight on pre-tax money and maybe only recently have started to build up Roth money. And we think it’s really important to have balance and to have options in retirement. Your ability to be able to pivot and adjust to law changes, rule changes, market conditions, etc. are really important. And then part of that is not having to be forced to take out a required minimum distribution on a Roth helps you maintain that balance and maintain the nest egg, those tax free [inaudible 00:08:18] roles help give you flexibility and balance, the ability to be able to pass on funds to beneficiaries, Roth dollars.


Nick: Especially if you have… Maybe your kids are high-income, you’ve done a good job planning. We go through the numbers, we built the plan and there’s a pretty high probability that you’re going to be passing on money to the kids. The rub, money is usually much better to plan or to pass down, because of the fact that it will be tax-free to them as well. So the ability to really create flexibility in your planning and strategies is one of the reasons that we think the Roths are a really important piece of the pie.


John: Just to jump in. One thing, just backtracking to accessing it tax-free. Just a couple of rules with it is you have to be above 59 and a half. And you actually have to have had a Roth IRA account for at least five years. So an example would be, let’s say I open one up at age 60. I’m above 59 and a half. The person cannot actually withdraw tax free until basically 65. So I have to wait five years and that’s from the first Roth I ever started up. So one thing that we typically will work with clients is if they’re eligible, we might just go ahead and start a Roth IRA just to start that five year window.


Speaker 1: Okay. All right. That’s good. Yeah. Good information to know on that. Now with the beneficiary thing and passing things along, is the change in the SECURE act, does that make a difference in the Roth as well? Is there anything there that would pertain to people if they’re thinking about it that they should definitely be checking with you guys on before doing a conversion or something like that?


John: Yeah, so I believe we’re doing a four part session to this. We’re going to talk about conversions, but yeah, that makes conversions a little more appealing where you have to pull the money out over a 10 year period now. Where basically at least if you have to pull it over 10 years, there’s actually no tax hit. So as your IRA gets bigger, if you’re pulling out of a $1 million IRA over a 10 year period, that’s going to really affect your tax rate. If it was all Roth money, it would have no bearing on your taxes.


Speaker 1: Gotcha. Okay. All right. Yeah, and we are going to continue on with this conversation on a future podcast about which one might be right for you and all those good kinds of things. Nick, anything else that we may have overlooked in there we need to throw in?


Nick: No, I just can’t really say it enough from the standpoint of building in flexibility is key. Most of the people that listen to the podcasts are going to have pretax money, but if they don’t have any Roth money then just getting started can be really important to build that up. Because even if they’re within a few years of retirement, just remember that we’re still planning for 30, 40 years down the road. Having money that compounds over a long period of time and then has tax free withdrawals on the backside is a pretty significant leverage point and benefit.


Speaker 1: Okay, one final question I’m going to ask you guys is you sometimes hear people say, if I’m still working, can I contribute or should I contribute to both kinds, the traditional or the Roth? What do you say when someone asks that type of question? Should someone do both the traditional for the tax reasons and then the Roth for the non-tax? What’s your answer?


John: We’ll answer that in the next session.


Speaker 1: Nicely done. Look at him teeing that up. There you go, folks. All right, I’ll tell you what. We will take care of that on the next session and that way you have a reason to come back. A cliffhanger if you will. So if you’ve got questions about the Roth IRA, make sure you talk with your advisor about that. If you’re not working with an advisor, you certainly should be. Reach out to John and Nick and give them a call at PFG Private Wealth. And you can reach them at 813-286-7776. That’s the number to dial. 813-286-7776 here in the Tampa Bay area or go to their website, check them out online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That is pfgprivatewealth.com. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you can get those next episodes as they come out. Nick, John, thanks for your time this week.


Speaker 1: I hope everybody has a great week and you guys enjoy yourself and continue to get some good sleep while that baby’s resting, all right?


John: Hopefully it continues. I think it will.


Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. Nick, appreciate your time, buddy. Take care.


Nick: Thanks. Have a good one.


Speaker 1: We’ll see you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined with the guys from PFG Private Wealth, John and Nick.